Badlands Fieldcraft: Junk on the Bunk and Reader email: What pack and gear?

Originally appeared at Badlands Fieldcraft. -NCS

The following was a question from a friend and reader who I’ve had lengthy discussions with in the past, and I thought this discussion might be of interest to other readers as well.

Are you still running an ALICE pack and web gear? If so have you changed out waist pad and shoulder straps? Just wondering since your blog post on operating out of extended cab pickups, which leads to the next question, Awhile back you sent me a link to a video of use of pickups/technicals, are you running with this idea,; full size or Toyotas?

So I still have a couple medium ALICE packs, one with the metal frame and LC-2 pads, the other with the MOLLE II polymer frame and MOLLE II pads. I bought this pack from a gentleman who had it modified when he was at Ft. Bragg and it’s got fastex buckles added to all the straps and pouches. The MOLLE II frame is the latest version and I believe they’ve fixed the issues they had early on. This is one of the Coyote frames, avoid the black ones. I’m still convinced the medium ALICE is the best bang for the buck for packs.

But it’s got its drawbacks too, I wanted something that I could carry up to 65L of gear in, but then I also needed a patrol pack. I think this is a common situation faced in the military, once you’ve hiked in, you still need a smaller pack to carry gear on foot patrols out of the patrol base. I think the US has struggled tackling this problem with different designs incorporating a smaller pack added to a larger pack. For some reason we can’t seem to crack this nut that the Brits cracked in the early 80’s with the PLCE system.

I’ve since upgraded packs to a Karrimor SF Predator 45. As the name implies, it’s a 45L pack, but from what I’ve seen that rating is very conservative. In my mind there’s typically 3 types of packs, based off the time you expect to be out. A “day” or “patrol” pack, a “3 day” pack, and a “long range” pack. The 45L+ size of the Predator 45 puts it solidly in the 3 day pack range, but the beauty of the design is that it’s very modular.

The PLCE packs utilize a pair of zippers on each side for the addition of extra pouches. This might seem similar to a MOLLE sustainment pouch, but these are larger and the zipper and buckles that it attaches with make it a much more solid install. Each side pouch is 12.5 L, and with the addition of both side pouches I’m at a conservative 70L. This is a ton of room, and that’s without adding MOLLE pouches. And with the addition of a PLCE yoke, these pouches can be converted into a day pack. You can also zip the side zipper together to reduce the packs size by about half. This is nice for using it as a day pack.

The PLCE zipper are very large and heavy duty YKK.
With the addition of side pouches equipment can still be stored alongside the pack.
Karrimor produces a nice PLCE panel with two double mag pouches at top and a 200 round SAW pouch at bottom. I keep my large trauma kit in the SAW pouch.

The Predator is a top loading pack, and also being short and wide, it is quite similar to an ALICE as far as packing it. It has two drawstring closures on top to keep the rain and snow out, as well as a compression strap that is useful for carrying gear under the lid. The lid itself has a nice pouch on top for carrying items that you want quick access to as well as a mesh pocket underneath. The lid is detachable allowing for a large amount of expansion underneath. The Predator 45 also rides perfectly on top of my web gear, not surprising since it is a current issue pack for the Brits.

The Predator 45 is an internal frame pack utilizing a stiff frame sheet, but with the 4 D rings supplied on the top and bottom it can be attached to an external frame. I’m not aware of a specific designed frame for this but from the location of the D rings they would attach to an ALICE frame easy enough. The shoulder straps and waist belt are nicely padded and plenty comfortable.

So while I think a medium ALICE is a great pack for the money, I feel like the Predator 45 offers a lot of features that people typically add to their ALICE’s making it that much better.

Web Gear

1. 2x 3 mag pouches 2. IFAK 3. ALICE butt pouch 4. Water bottle pouch 5. 8x monocular 6. USGI lensatic compass 7. Tourniquet and shears

I’m still running with the web gear, it rides high enough that it serves as support for my pack if I clinch up the waist belt good. I use a USMC battle belt rather than the old school pistol belt so I can do this. I’ve also added a web belt pad so that it functions like a pack belt better.

I haven’t changed a whole lot on this setup in quite awhile, it just works good for me. Between the web gear and my Hill People Gear chest pack, all the 10 C’s are covered and I can carry a small amount of chow with too. The butt pack is large enough to honestly forgo a day pack if I wanted to. I don’t use ALICE clips or zip ties to attach it, instead I ran the compression straps through the MOLLE webbing on my belt and that has made it quite stable.

I’ll do a more detailed post on the gear in the future, detailed what, where and why I pack certain things.

Trucks and operating mounted

So as far as what trucks I had in mind in my blog post, I prefer full size pickups for the cargo capacity. The extra weight of the larger truck helps a lot too when plowing through snow and mud. It seems to be en vogue for the off road folks to use the smaller Toyotas, but then there’s always a roof rack added so they can actually store their gear. Seems kind of silly to me and it throws off the center of gravity of the vehicle. I’m not saying the smaller trucks aren’t useful, or even UTV’s/ quads for that matter. My main idea was really to think about using conveyance and a team to create a somewhat self sustaining group for long range operations. If I was to have my dream truck I’d go with a Dodge Power Wagon with a pintle mounted 240 in the back. ?

I get why the reader is asking about gear and vehicles, because the web gear is pretty much a no go when driving. I can do it in my pick up if I slide the seat all the way back, but it’s very uncomfortable still. For this I think I would try and equip my vehicle drivers and commanders with a light chest rig, just IFAK, mags and commo. Something they could wear while in the vehicle, but then if they wanted web gear for foot patrolling swap it out. All the other guys in back would have their dismounted gear already.

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About the Author: NC Scout

NC Scout is the nom de guerre of a former Infantry Scout and Sergeant in one of the Army’s best Reconnaissance Units. He has combat tours in both Iraq and Afghanistan. He teaches a series of courses focusing on small unit skills rarely if ever taught anywhere else in the prepping and survival field, including his RTO Course which focuses on small unit communications. In his free time he is an avid hunter, bushcrafter, writer, long range shooter, prepper, amateur radio operator and Libertarian activist. He can be contacted at brushbeater@tutanota.com or via his blog at brushbeater.wordpress.com .

17 Comments

  1. Anonymous July 12, 2020 at 09:38

    5

  2. Insurance Agent July 12, 2020 at 10:09

    I still run the older Alice pistol belt, magazine pouches, Butt pack, canteens and Y harness.

    I do admire your setup though and may try some of your ideas out.

    I’ve been looking for an adapter that would allow you put MOLLE in the older gear, but so far all I have found is an adapter to put Alice type pouches on MOLLE.

    I bought a pair of Pack frames from a company called downeast innovations. I think it’s the same company that produces your pack frames.

    I then picked up 2 sets (Used surplus)of the newer MOLLE style pack straps and waist belts. I was able to rig up both a medium and large ALICE ruck.

    I’m happy to report it’s a now a relative pleasure to carry a load in those packs. It took about 3 beers and 2 hours of time, but I was able to figure out how to combine the old and the new. This is just an adaptation of the Hellcat design.

    The medium has about 50 lbs of weight plates and water bottles, it’s my exercise ruck.

    Very much tempted to send both packs to tactical tailor or a similar place for fasted buckles and a water resistant liner.

  3. AZM July 12, 2020 at 14:04

    Kelty Falcon 4000 and MAP 3500 are my bags. the Falcon can reduce in size to become a day-pack/patrol pack. I know they’re not Milsurp backpacks but they show much design thought and user customization built into their bags. Nutnfancy has given lots of long-term use to the Kelty brand and shows their rugged design after lots of hard use. Just a thought if milsurp becomes scarce.

  4. Hedge July 12, 2020 at 18:01

    Nice setup. Versatile. Simple. That Dodge on the other hand. ; )

  5. Badlands Rifleman July 12, 2020 at 19:12

    Insurance Agent- What I’ve done in the part to mount MOLLE to an ALICE pistol belt is to run the MOLLE strap behind the belt, skip the top MOLLE loop on the pouch, then run the strap through the next loop. Then after buttoning the strap as usual, I zip tie both the inner portion of the strap and the part you just ran through the loops directly underneath the belt. I’m sure this is about as clear as mud lol. This is assuming you are using MOLLE pouches that are using built in straps and not MALICE clips or something.
    My gear started out as all ALICE, because I didn’t have much money and I needed to get something usable and ready to go in late 2012 should I have needed it. I had an LBE, large ALICE pack and MMSS ready to go to the field for about $300. It was the best I could afford at the time and I’ve since worked on upgrading as I felt it needed it. There are also MOLLE SCUBA belt adapter that might fit over an ALICE pistol belt if you modify them a tad. My advice is just get a MOLLE belt though.

    You are correct about DEI making the current frames, I’ve always enjoyed the MOLLE suspension as well, although for a true Cadillac experience the ILBE pack was out of this world comfort wise. If you’re looking for an upgraded ALICE you may be interested in the FILBE pack. They are about the size of a large ALICE and covered in MOLLE. I looked into doing a MALICE pack as well, just not versatile enough for what I was looking for.

    AZM- I’m glad you’re happy with your Kelty’s. I had a Redwing 65 for a bit and I think it is good for a civilian hiking pack, nice and lightweight and comfortable. I just wasn’t impressed by the tiny buckles and the fabric seemed like it could blow through. Then again I’m kind of an orangutan with gear ?

    Hedge- Thanks, it’s always a work in progress but I’m finding there’s fewer things to mess with on it anymore. I know that a Power Wagon isn’t as cool as your Prius, what can I say? I’m compensating!

    • johnyMac July 13, 2020 at 09:12

      Yeah I hear ya’ Badlands Rifleman. When I too put together my first kit, I was on a shoe string budget at the time and ALICE equipment was great for that. Over the years – literally – my kit has evolved to what it is now. As an example, my battle belt is a little bit ALICE, a little bit T.REX ARMS, and a little bit CONDOR.

      I was at NC Scouts Combat Carbine course this past weekend and although I was 98% happy with my battle rattle some minor adjustments can be made, e.g. replace the metal clips with zip ties for the connection of the ALICE suspenders to the battle belt. OUCH!

      Just remember Brother, the Roman empire was not built in one day.

      73 & God Bless

      • Badlands Rifleman July 13, 2020 at 18:16

        Yeah, those metal clips weren’t the best idea haha. I’ve been tempted to start shopping for a new harness, the one I’ve got is showing quite a bit of wear and since it’s a Condor piece I think I’ve got my money’s worth out of it. I’ve used a lot of Condor gear and honestly it’s all been perfectly usable. My whole belt rig in Iraq was bought out of a surplus store in 29 Palms and it was almost completely Condor, never had any issues and I wore it for more hours than a lot of people wear their high end gear for. Of course that was at a time when a Surefire light and an EOTech was pretty high speed gear, I think Magpul wasn’t even making mags yet? I’ve got HSGI and Tactical Tailor gear too, and I haven’t seen anything that justifies the price tag beyond the fact that you are supporting a US company. I’ve used a lot of Grey Ghost Gear products too, and they seem to be a little better priced and still good quality, and made in the US. Most of the guys I’ve met that have never “been there, done that” are convinced you can’t possibly fight without the latest Gucci gear. You can lead horses to water..??‍♂️

  6. Anonymous July 12, 2020 at 19:49

    4.5

  7. brunop July 12, 2020 at 19:54

    What about making that Power Wagon a little more “survivable” in the Bullet Magnet role it plays for an RRT. I understand sandbags in the bed. I also get bolting some AR-500 to the back of the cab. What about the front and sides?

    Just looking for ideas. Thanks.

  8. Badlands Rifleman July 12, 2020 at 22:41

    Brunop – I’m not really any kind of expert on modifying vehicles like that. When I was in Iraq we were using up armored hummers, that they then added additional armor to. As far as I’m aware, these had heavier duty suspension and brakes to handle the additional weight of armor over a standard hummer. That would be something to consider in modifying any other vehicle. I think you’d be better off relying on good scouting and security to keep the vehicles safe. I’ve always thought that the vehicles would be a light skinned transport, moved from camp to camp with all the supplies etc. along a pre-secured route that was already cleared ahead of time. Of course that’s just my own ideas.

  9. Shadow Walker July 13, 2020 at 11:33

    Looking for good Alice pack shoulder straps, and waist belt ? Check out http://www.Thehiddenwoodsman.com
    I switched mine out, and highly recommend them.

  10. Shadow Walker July 13, 2020 at 17:44

    Want to convert your Alice pack buckles to quick release ? No sewing involved. External pouches + main flap. Even internal radio pouch alteration split bar ladder-lock. Check out https://ovinnovations.com

    • NC Scout July 13, 2020 at 17:49

      Nice.

  11. David A. Moore July 14, 2020 at 00:54

    NC Scout,

    IMHO, after years of usage (approx. 10+-Years!), I’ve found the BEST Rucksack is the Arc’teryx-designed and Popper-made USMC [& I’m an Army Vet!?] MARPAT Camouflage patterned ILBE pack ~ it handled 135-lbs. [my son loaded it with iron plates from our garage’s weightlifting Free-weight equipment] just to see if it & he could hold-lift-carry it around and it/he did ~ of course, he was 19 then! The ruck cost me (Amazon.com) about $75 for the entire system [Ruck w/ well-padded hip belt attached, Radio Cover-Top and 3-Day separate pack w/ all matching MARPAT Camouflage..!! It carries medium-to-HEAVY Weights perfectly w/ almost all the weight resting solidly on the hip. Literally, I can’t say enough good about this Rucksack/Backpack/72-Hour Pack??

    • NC Scout July 14, 2020 at 05:29

      Those are nice.

  12. Teotwaki July 15, 2020 at 00:31

    The HPG Kit Bag V2 is a daily wear item for me because I can leave it on while driving and it keeps close at hand the small daily use items (compass, small binos, GPS, etc.). My heavy hauler pack is the Arcteryx Khyber 80. If less volume is needed I switch out for the Khyber 50 or a customized CamelBak 72 hour pack.

    Thanks for covering this topic.

    • NC Scout July 15, 2020 at 07:24

      It’s nice and well made. I’ve had two people in class with them and I really like the concept and execution.

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